Sister to Sister: Mary Feliz and Hank Phillippi Ryan
This interview originally appeared June 23, 2020 on the blog of Sisters in Crime New England
True story. Totally true. Like many of you, I’m working on my next book. Like many of you, I know it’s a process, and a journey, and a progression, and any other word you’d like to use. But bottom line, I have a deadline, and I’m behind, and I’m ridiculously distracted by the real world.
Adding to my dilemma, I’m in the middle of the book. The worst possible place. Sisters, it crossed my mind: this is the time it’s not going to work. No, honestly, I’ve written 13 books, and there’s not a time that I have not had that thought.
But then I thought: Well, yeah, but maybe this is the time it’s not going to work.
And then… Hallelujah. I chatted with the fabulous Mary Feliz.
She is a dear friend, and a stalwart Guppy, and incredibly generous, and Mary, I am so grateful. This interview is life-changing! And, sisters, I hope it will be for you as well.
HANK PHILLIPPI RYAN: Do you remember the very first time you thought: I’m going to write a book, and I can do it. What was that moment?
MARY FELIZ: When I was nine or ten, I wanted to write a book like The Bobbsey Twins. I knew I would have to have dialogue, but after a page and a half of "...," he said. and "...," she said. I got so bored that I left the project in a desk drawer. It took learning to type and the invention of personal computers and word processing before I'd tackle a project again?
HANK: Did that first book sell?
MARY: Um. No. I don't think I ever even showed it to anyone. More recently, I drafted a historical fiction for young adults, got an agent, and submitted it everywhere. Lots of people asked for full manuscripts, but no one wanted to publish it. Looking back, I don't blame them. It was a good novice effort, but the narrative structure was ghastly. It was also a book that was hard to peg. Where would it go on the shelf? When I came back to writing several years later, I knew I wanted to write a mystery that everyone would know how to market and sell.
HANK: How many of your books have been published since then? What do you think about that?
MARY: My sixth book released June 9 from Kensington's Lyrical Press. And I'm still sure it's a dream I'll eventually wake up from, feeling a bit sheepish. Me? A writer? My family would say, "Of course, you've worked so hard for so long." But they don't have the insider's perspective on how many deserving books never see the light of day.
HANK: Gotta know, got to ask. Do you outline? Has your method changed over the years?
MARY: Kinda sorta. I outline the characters, key plot points, and scenes for the whole book and write a synopsis. But every ten thousand pages or so, I have to either redo it because it veered off course while I was writing. After I finish the first draft, I redo the outline again. And then, of course, the real work begins. Big picture structural elements get tweaked to make the story more readable. Characters get fleshed out and I make sure they react emotionally to important moments and other pesky stuff like "What is dead guy's real name? And what happened to the wedding cake? Did the Chihuahua turn into a Pomeranian in mid-story?"
HANK: What is the hardest part of the book for you?
MARY: Halfway through, I panic. I'm not sure where I'm going or how I'm going to get there. None of the characters are behaving or helping in any way. It's a little like putting together a jigsaw puzzle and becoming convinced that all the remaining puzzle pieces are hidden in some other box.
HANK: I SO agree! SO awful and very upsetting. So then what do you do? I guess—back to basics.
MARY: Yes. At least now I know that means I have to go back to the basics of storytelling and narrative structure. I haul out my index cards and map out the story on the floor. I figure out why each character might have wanted to kill the dead guy (that's seriously fun). Once I make sure every scene is in the right place and I have all the pieces I need up to the midpoint, the rest tends to flow from there. At least until I hit another structural defect and need to shore up some spots so the structure doesn't collapse. It's never so terrible that I need to completely revamp the beginning, but I do need to consult my story map and make sure I know where I'm going and which path I'm going to take.
I guess it's like those folks who walk the Pacific Crest or Appalachian Trails. It's a long haul. They do research, plan their route, train, pack carefully, and repack. Finally, they're confident. They have everything they need and they know exactly where they are going. They look at their map and set off. But that doesn't mean they never look at the map again. If a trail is washed out or snowed in, they'll replan their route. If it's much hotter, colder, or wetter than they expected, they stop, rest, learn more, and regroup. Writing is very similar. It just doesn't burn as many calories.
HANK: Oh, this is such a relief to hear. I’m so—grateful that it’s not only me. SO then—you get a first draft. Whew. Is your first draft always terrible? Has it always been?
MARY: Yes! I think it always will be. One big thing that has changed is the way I write the book. When I was first learning to create a novel, I'd write a scene, then write another scene much later in the book before coming back to rewrite the first chapter. That poor first chapter was rewritten so many times even I don't remember all the iterations. Now, I usually come up with a first line in the middle of the night, and start writing forward from there. If I get stuck, I regroup and adjust the plan, but keep moving forward, making notes as I go along about things I need to fix or check when I write subsequent drafts.
HANK: It sounds like you have a good system. But was there ever a time when you thought you would give up writing?
MARY: Usually after I hand in the book, I wonder if I can ever write another. But something pulls me back every time. Sometimes it's a contract deadline and sometimes it's a need to explore a new idea. There's a quote from Agatha Christie that I love. It's "I assumed the burden of a profession, which is to write even when you don't want to." I'm not as disciplined as Dame Agatha. I sometimes play hooky, but I always come back.
HANK: I am making a t-shirt that says that! Perfect. Still, how often in your process do you have doubts about what you’re doing?
MARY: All the time. And especially right before the book comes out. Will it be printed right? Did we catch all of the typos? (No, we never do, no matter how many people have edited and proofread it.) How embarrassed will I be to have my name on the cover. Ack!
HANK: What do you tell yourself during those moments of writing fear?
MARY: I reassure myself with a lesson I learned from quilting. That is that each project represents the best you can do AT THAT POINT. It will have mistakes. It will have things you want to change. But it still represents the very best you could achieve. You should be proud of that, no matter how much more accomplished you become. I think it bothered me more in the beginning, and that fear could derail me for days.
Now, I just take a shower, go for a walk, make dinner, and start again the next day. Some days, I set a timer and tell myself that no matter what, I have to sit at my keyboard for two hours, no matter what, even if I don't write a word. The words come.
HANK: I do the timer, too! I am so pleased to be in this with you. Do you have a writing quirk you have to watch out for?
MARY: My characters are forever nodding and smiling. Nodding and smiling. And touching each other. In March, Snowed Under was in production. Overnight, my cozy mystery with the cute little pups on the cover turned into an edgy horror novel in which everyone engages in risky anti-social behavior like shaking hands, eating together in public, and touching things. <shudder> Like everything else, it no longer feels quite as cozy as it once did.
HANK: SO funny. What’s one writing thing you always do—write every day? Never stop at the end of a chapter? Write first thing in the morning?
MARY: I never end the day's writing without setting down a few notes about where the story will go next. Those notes help me get back into the story quickly the next day.
HANK: How do you know when your book is finished?
MARY: Honestly? When the book is due. Hopefully, at that point, it's as good as I can make it on my own and it's ready for input from others with a fresh perspective. I love getting editorial suggestions back and making the story even better than I imagined it could be.
HANK: Speaking of suggestions. What’s the biggest mistake you see in people’s manuscripts?
MARY: I don't know if it's the biggest, but the one that drives me nuts is when writers put in dialogue what should be put in narration. So they have Bob telling Sam things like "Remember how your mom was murdered last year and you swore you'd find her killer?" Somehow, I don't think Sam needs Bob to remind him of that life-changing oath. Information like that has to be something Sam says himself, and if necessary, the reader is reminded of in narration.
HANK: Do you think anyone can be taught to be a better writer?
MARY: Absolutely. And I think that most people, if they work long enough and hard enough, will produce a novel worth publishing. It's just such a long haul from "I think I'll write a book" to a publishable novel that few people have the time, patience, tenacity, financial support, or sustained interest to get that far. Most published writers have a serious stubborn streak and a pinch or more of a mental health issue. Otherwise, they'd find something else to do that's more fun, more lucrative, and has a more immediate payoff.
HANK: How do you feel about…stuff? Writing swag handouts giveaways that kind of thing. Do you think it matters? Do you have it?
MARY: I do have swag. And I do love it, for several reasons. First, I don't much like talking about myself or my books, but most people think my swag is adorable and that starts a fun conversation that's not about me. Lots of children and grandchildren of my fans have dolls or teddy bears who appear to be reading my books.
Also, I think that people are reluctant to throw away something that's useful -- like sticky notes. So they have my book covers and list of titles in front of them all the time. And, the books match my personality and that of my main character, Maggie McDonald, who is a professional organizer (like Marie Kondo with heart). They're tidy and useful, but they are also different, quirky, and fun.
HANK: You’ve seen so much change in the publishing industry, what do you think new writers need to know about that?
MARY: Oh boy. That's hard. It's impossible to keep up. It's especially difficult for people who self-publish who are on the front lines of a changing world. In addition to writing a great book, they also need to either hire out the help of others, or be adept and up-to-date in a myriad of professions: editing, marketing, layout, photography, design, etc.
I rely heavily on my publisher, Kensington, and all the many different departments within the company to stay up to date so that I don't have to. There's no way I'd have time to write books if I had to do all those other things too. Most authors need to do the lion's share of their own promotion, and share ideas all the time with other authors, so we don't all have to be experts in everything. Conventions, conferences, and professional groups like Sisters in Crime make that possible.
HANK: You’ve been so successful, why do you think that is? What secret of yours can we bottle up and rely on?
MARY: I heard a talk by Anne Lamott once in which she was poking fun at herself because she'd raced to get a handful of copies of the New York Times Book Review because she had a glowing review, or she was on the best-seller list, or both. That's certainly understandable, and something any one of us would do were we to reach such lofty heights. But Anne was suddenly miffed because someone else was on the cover. And she thought that was an insane way to respond to enormous success.
And I think all writers are like that to one extent or another. You say I'm successful, and my immediate response is "Successful? Me? But look at all the accolades I haven't achieved." I should just say "Thank you so much. I'm thrilled to bits."
HANK: So brilliant. And so true. So what book are you are reading right now?
MARY: I'm rereading Elly Griffiths' Ruth Galloway series. Elly is brilliant. Her descriptions stay with me for years on end, and her style is so unique that when I read her latest book, Edgar Nominated Stranger Diaries, her voice sounded familiar. I'd completely forgotten that I read her first Ruth Galloway book when it came out in 2009.
HANK: You’ve helped me so much throughout this interview—and I am incredibly grateful. Can you give us one more piece of writing advice?
MARY: Stick with it. The people who don't get published are the people who quit because it's too hard and it takes too long. Those that keep going get published.
HANK: Thank you so much, Mary! And sisters, isn’t she great? So let me ask you all—have you ever used a timer? What tricks do you use to get your writing underway?
Mary Feliz writes the Maggie McDonald Mysteries featuring a professional organizer and her sidekick golden retriever. If you happen to discover a body cluttering up your space, Maggie’ll track down the murderer and wrap the case up neatly. (Can you imagine Marie Kondo providing that service?)
Mary is a certified California Naturalist and delights in introducing readers to her state’s natural beauty. Her fifth book, Cliff Hanger, is set on the shores of Monterey Bay, and was named a Best Book of 2019 by Suspense Magazine. Her sixth book, Snowed Under, releases June 9.
USA Today bestselling author HANK PHILLIPPI RYAN is the on-air investigative reporter for Boston’s WHDH-TV. She’s won 36 EMMYs for her groundbreaking journalism. As author of 12 suspense novels, Hank has won five Agathas, three Anthonys, and the coveted Mary Higgins Clark Award. National reviews call her a “master at crafting suspenseful mysteries” and “a superb and gifted storyteller.” Her novels were named Best of the Year by Library Journal, New York Post, BOOK BUB, PopSugar, Real Simple Magazine and others.
Her second standalone is the psychological legal thriller THE MURDER LIST. The Library Journal starred review calls it “a riveting must read!” It’s a nominee for the prestigious Anthony, Agatha and Mary Higgins Clark Award. Her newest book is the psychological thriller THE FIRST TO LIE. The Publishers Weekly starred review calls it “Stellar.”